So it's purely a question of fronting abilities of your hosts? Do you all have different mindsets/personalities though? If you all can draw (as in single brain skill), does your mindsets affect your drawing styles/preferences?
7:40 AM
You've mentioned that you are not exactly a tulpa system though, so I'm not sure if my last questions are accurate.
It’s not always up to fronting abilities. Generally, it’s a “if you’re in front and have work to do, you’re expected to try working on it” situation. As for mindsets and personalities, yes, they can vary a lot headmate to headmate, but this doesn’t usually translate to our art, much less freelance work. We keep a fairly consistent style for our clients, and our personal artwork varies depending on what we want to convey with the piece, not necessarily based on the personalities of those who created it.
7:43 AM
Then again, the things I like to draw in my free time differ from what other headmates want to draw, so the subject matter is naturally different. Our style is the same regardless of who fronts, though.
Interesting. Also, slightly different question: do your personalities/experiences affect your actions? In a way, like, moving around, interacting with people outside of your system, other things?
We share our memories. As for how personalities affect our actions, they do.
7:54 AM
Atlas and I try to be more serious and held back when interacting with people we don't know well, meanwhile Mason often forgets to have a filter, and can be ruder than she thinks she's being.
7:55 AM
We have slightly different mannerisms as well, but none of this is really enough for outsiders to think anything is strange about us. I doubt anyone suspects we are a system.
So you don't have too big differences in "output" of your mannerisms? I see.
And returning back to my first questions: can you act together at once in any kind of way? Or it's just one fronting host -> one line of thought with no cooperation in system?
We can cooperate and act together, and we can have multiple people in and around front to weigh in on different things we experience.
Maou
So it's purely a question of fronting abilities of your hosts? Do you all have different mindsets/personalities though? If you all can draw (as in single brain skill), does your mindsets affect your drawing styles/preferences?
Tewi: While we all work with the same knowledge and skills, our mindsets and thought patterns can definitely affect our efficiency doing (or likelihood to do) certain things.(edited)
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8:11 AM
My host relied on me a lot to do college work as we suffer from "motivation issues" (seems a reward center problem due to anhedonia, we think) and my mindset, mental orderliness, self discipline and whatever else have you fare better with it.
8:12 AM
I'm not immune, though. I just fare better, while another systemmate might fare worse.
Reisen
Tewi: While we all work with the same knowledge and skills, our mindsets and thought patterns can definitely affect our efficiency doing (or likelihood to do) certain things. (edited)
Considering this - with some exact mindsets (more experienced/self-desciplined hosts/tulpas, as an example) some parts of the system can learn/work with more efficinecy, am I correct? If so, does the gained knowledge, experience and skills, gained by those who are "more fit" for "action", spread onto others?
Tewi: Well, of course. The trickier thing isn't whether direct knowledge or skills are shared, but what the effect of spending time switched and living with these different thought patterns has on the brain.(edited)
8:24 AM
And I would say there are some positive effects. The host's mannerisms tend to influence switching tulpas (at least until they're well-experienced switching), and the reverse happens too. I've probably helped our system as a whole make some more productive habits, and a couple of my systemmates have helped me think more positively too.
8:25 AM
All that said, this is all theoretically possible for a "singlet"/someone with no headmates as well. But that's like saying headaches cured by sugar pills (placebos) can be cured without them as well. They technically could, but without a conduit for the effect, how would you go about it?
People's minds tend to go to "Buddhist monk meditating in the mountains" for feats like this. I don't think it needs to be so mystical, but the discipline does need to be there. Not to mention proficiency with working with your mind.(edited)
8:27 AM
Our host spent his entire teenage years working with his mind for self-improvement, but also most of them with us too. So I guess we've got both.
So the switching practice did help your brain and psyche of all your headmates work better, as in taking the best traits from everyone after some time?
Tewi: I wouldn't say there's innately a bias towards "taking the best traits", unless you're all purposely thinking/working towards that consciously.(edited)
Tewi: We promote tulpas as great mental companions, to those who the phenomenon sounds appealing to, though our system also personally considers the practice a great conduit for self-improvement.(edited)
Tewi: "Mental companion/friend" is usually the universally agreed upon "Good reason to make a tulpa", with reasons like "I want to switch with them so they can take over my life and magically fix everything" or so on extremely discouraged. In that area of topic, "creating a tulpa(s) as tools for self improvement" is borderline where some might approve and others would not.(edited)
8:36 AM
Basically it's always better if you go into tulpa creation expecting them to be a companion, at least, and whatever else as hopeful intent.
Reisen
Tewi: "Mental companion/friend" is usually the universally agreed upon "Good reason to make a tulpa", with reasons like "I want to switch with them so they can take over my life and magically fix everything" or so on extremely discouraged. In that area of topic, "creating a tulpa(s) as tools for self improvement" is borderline where some might approve and others would not. (edited)
"I want to switch with them so they can take over my life and magically fix everything" or so on extremely discouraged
(Because a tulpa is still just a human, and using your same brain, so even if they have a more positive outlook or such they can't perform any miracles for your life that you yourself couldn't)(edited)
I agree, since tulpa is a same alive personality, as the host himself. And ofcourse the main point of such relationship is a companionship, since you should not create yourself a work-buddy just for that. It goes without a question. But I am wondering on how, in moments of needed cooperation, this can work out. How parts of the system can cooperate? How can that enhance both of you? Can the cooperation of 2 or more headmates be done at the same time?
Tewi: It's an old community myth (generally referred to with the phenomenon "parallel processing") that a tulpa and host can do the same types of, but different, things at the same time. There's really no evidence it's possible, so the common joke of making a hundred tulpas to become a supercomputer etc. gets made.(edited)
8:44 AM
Practically speaking, along the lines of what I said at first, whatever's possible with a tulpa is also technically possible alone. They might be able to help you stay focused/on task or motivated, in a best case scenario. But I don't think there's any performance benefits to a tulpa that other forms of (single identity) processes/tricks couldn't accomplish as well.
8:45 AM
For example, you might remember a series of things better by reciting them to your tulpa with the expectation they could "remember them for you"... But you could also use the "memory palace" trick of creating associations to do the same, probably better in this case.
8:47 AM
On that exact topic, I recommend "The Memory Book" by Jerry Lucas and Harry Lorayne if you want to develop some memory-based superpowers.
8:48 AM
Anyways, examples of systems doing anything particularly impressive with tulpa+host cooperation in the community are usually limited to aiding with depression, motivation, focus/figuring things out through discussion and the like.
8:48 AM
No real math geniuses owing to their headmates or anything.
8:50 AM
As far as "Benefits that tulpas provide" go, we usually just say that your brain's ability to simulate another person's perspective is utilized to its fullest extent when discussing with your tulpa(s), vs just thinking on your own. Falls in line with the "theoretically possible with placebo/on your own" thing, but I do think it's far more natural and simple with a tulpa.
8:50 AM
Tewi: Tulpas can be very, very good for bouncing ideas off of.(edited)
8:51 AM
Aside from emotional support and such, we wouldn't normally promote them as doing anything else of special note that you can't do alone.
I see. Also, thank you for an interesting idea of memory training and the book as a reference.
And regarding different points of view: can I specify, if you, for example, can hold a conversation with your system-mates while doing something? Meaning half-concentrating with your mind on some task/line of thought and listening to your tulpa at the same time, while tulpa is having a proper line of thought her/himself?
8:56 AM
Or does that already goes as "parallel processing", which is nonexistent in the concept?
Tewi: This is actually a topic seemingly only our own system has ever really discussed (in the "Parallel Processing Experiences & Practice Megathread" on the forum), and no one followed up on it..(edited)
8:58 AM
So taking only our own thoughts on it since I guess the forum was too dead by then to care to study this-
8:59 AM
We say that the brain can do many, many different things at once, of course. As long as they're using different parts of the brain. Walking, talking, typing on a phone, looking for cars ahead, and maybe keeping a tulpa visually imposed nearby, for example.
9:00 AM
What we tried a call to action for was to get people to try and practice this to see if the efficiency/immersion and range of all these different sorts of things working in parallel was a trainable skill, or just a default as-is fact.
9:00 AM
No one did though, so you've only got our basic assumptions on the subject.
9:01 AM
I think that some people are rather good at daydreaming while performing actions (like chores or a familiar job), so there is likely a little room for improvement of such things, with at the very least internal-visualization-immersion + physical actions as a confirmed precedent.
9:01 AM
This is very, very much a "You don't need tulpas to explore this" thing, though.
9:02 AM
It's just very relevant to the tulpa experience, is all.
Ah, I apologize, since i'm berely touching the tip of iceberg on discord server here with channel such as this one.
But the topic is very interesting indeed, plus my thoughts are: it should be a very enjoyable experience to live with a tulpa as you could with any person, meaning doing things while conversing with them, visualizing them, etc.
Thank you for the link, I'll continue reading other messages there at a bit later time. Though let me ask you right away, Tewi: in this exact parallel processing at multitasking while, for example, conversing with your system-mates - to which extent can you do that? If this is not something too personal to ask, of course.
And also: speaking of your idea, presented in the message towards which you've linked me, did you ever try to successfully mix the wonderland visualisation and the "eye contact" with the outer world? For example, seeing yourself sitting in your wonderland, doing things or even conversing with your system-mates while "watching" a "TV" of what is happening in an outer world, which is being registered by your physical eyes?
You might have covered it later in the thread, but I wanted to ask you right away.
9:27 AM
Or am I going off topic and this is a "parallel processing" idea?
Tewi: Are you familiar with what the skill "imposition" is?(edited)
9:27 AM
I can't tell if you're asking about that, or about something novel but a little silly
9:29 AM
Mixing visualization and the physical world, that's not really been done or talked about anyway. I guess it's possible?
Imposition on the other hand is a fairly well-known "advanced" tulpamancy skill (though once again, it can technically be done alone, with objects or etc.)
Ah, let me be more specific: did you try to do the a bit of "reverse" of imposition. Having a sense of yourself being present in wonderland, while still registering what is going on in outer world with your eyes, but not losing focus on both things, I guess.
Tewi: We're somewhat good at imposition. Meaning, we can "impose" a systemmate in physical space, so we can see them (faintly, in our case, as we never practice), focus our eyes on the air where they're at, strongly feel their presence (ie "like there's someone in the room" or "like you're standing next to someone"), and we personally have not practiced (due to little interest in) auditory and tactile imposition. (We simply have our mind-voices "sound like they're coming from a direction", vs controlled-hallucinating them as actual sound, and our physical-touch controlled-hallucinating is very very minor - others have practiced this more than us)(edited)
Maou
Ah, let me be more specific: did you try to do the a bit of "reverse" of imposition. Having a sense of yourself being present in wonderland, while still registering what is going on in outer world with your eyes, but not losing focus on both things, I guess.
Tewi: No, we haven't really. Lumi came up with all of what he wrote in that thread because, while he himself wasn't interested, he was disappointed in how not-adventurous discussion & practice of "parallel processing-like skills" the community was and wanted to spur practice & discussion.(edited)
9:33 AM
We personally have nearly zero interest in visualization/wonderlanding at this point as it just doesn't appeal to us, so there's very little chance we'll be doing such things as reverse-imposition for mixing physical senses into visualization/wonderlanding.
9:34 AM
(Mind, "reverse imposition" is more often used to mean either "removing perception of a sense", or "tulpa imposing host", but I do think it's a fitting term for this concept you basically just proposed for the first time too)
9:34 AM
People's interest is almost always more in achieving more immersive and vivid visualized/wonderland experiences.
9:35 AM
(Which is really just accomplished through practice, or meditation beforehand)
I guess mine idea is silly, but think of it as close to a daydreaming: you can daydream while doing stuff on autopilot, even registering on what's going on around you. Maybe there are those, who could just straight away go to wonderland, while doing things on autopilot and keeping an eye contact with that.
Might be a fantasy of mine so I apologize, if it sounds nonsensical. I just thought that maybe one could accomplish the "constant" concentration on wonderland, as if its the "main world", while still receiving visuals from "outer world" and even doing things in it.
9:40 AM
I guess it's just not the idea one would have any real interest in.
Tewi: Oh it's not nonsensical, but it is a little silly. It really is "reverse imposition", integrating the physical world into visualization/wonderland.(edited)
9:42 AM
I'm sure it can be done, while it is a relatively different process from imposition, it sounds actually a little more straightforward to accomplish.
Still related to this, but more basic: how well can you keep a conversation with your system-mates while doing other things? And is the conversation a turn-based type?
Tewi: Pretty well of course. For us, talking to each other is only a tiny bit more effort than "talking to yourself", and thinking to yourself while doing things is perfectly easy, for us at least.(edited)
9:47 AM
We take turns speaking, though people often run into tulpas replying in pure-thought ("tulpish") before they've finished verbally mentally speaking
9:48 AM
We recommend people learn to wait for systemmates to finish speaking their sentences before responding, just as a sort of plural etiquette, as it makes conversing nicer.
Tewi: "While doing other things" and "While concentrating hard on something" are very different.(edited)
9:49 AM
We can talk to each other "while doing chores around the house"-type activity as I said, very easily, just the tiniest bit more focus than "talking to ourselves" which is practically zero effort.
9:49 AM
But talking to each other does require that tiny bit of focus, so if trying to do so while strongly focused on something, that is difficult. That goes back into that "parallel processing-like skills practice" I talked about.
9:50 AM
Strongly focused as in like doing math calculations, though. Talking while watching a show or something and focusing on both is still not very hard.
So I assume there is a border onto which extent one can multitask - with conversating and working on something at the same time? Which may be put further away with training and/or mindset, in which you can perceive things easier. And maybe also the pure ability of one's mind.
9:59 AM
But conversations are always turn-based, is that right?
Maou
So I assume there is a border onto which extent one can multitask - with conversating and working on something at the same time? Which may be put further away with training and/or mindset, in which you can perceive things easier. And maybe also the pure ability of one's mind.
Tewi: I assume so. Aside from not many people having put effort into this and discussed their results, it's also not really tulpamancy-specific and anyone's knowledge, assuming they practice other mental activities like this, would be just as good.(edited)
Maou
But conversations are always turn-based, is that right?
Uhm, this is probably trainable. For us, the brain's focus switches between us ("quickly and seamlessly", a la "multitasking"), but we also are not ever made active unless the active fronter (one switched in) focuses on us. The latter for sure, and the former (conversing) likely, are not the case for all systems. I believe it's a trainable skill, though the training usually happens in the initial tulpa development/tulpamancy-learning process based on how the host believes it will work.(edited)
10:02 AM
So I can't say for talking (I can't see other people's thoughts), but for the presumably related "tulpas becoming active on their own", there are systems who have that ability.
10:02 AM
We haven't tried to work on either because we really don't mind how we work as-is.
Tewi: One would think any form of parallel processing - of the same part of the brain doing multiple things at once - is a myth, intuitively. You'd be as familiar with rumors of such-and-such skill being demonstrated by someone as anyone.(edited)
10:06 AM
That is to say, there are seemingly exceptional cases, and there may also be room to train it (for a given function of the brain), hard to say.(edited)
10:06 AM
Often best not to assume "Nope, not possible" with feats of the brain, lest you stifle yourself from exploring what its true limits are.
10:08 AM
You're basically asking if it's possible for someone to think two verbal lines of thought at the same time, to be clear.
10:08 AM
Seemingly no, but there may be exceptional cases, and those exceptional cases call into question what might be possible to train.
And having two points of view at the same time, I assume, yes.
So officially, it is impossible, but there is yet a way to understand the proper function of this theory and if there are ways for it to actually work or if there are alternatives, such as quick thinking, with one being able to see things as he perceives them on site, and a second later another thought process already sees it from another perspective and gives you hints onto that fact.
Tewi: The only example of a true-parallel-processing exception we're actively aware of is a man who could play multiple symphonies in his head at once, and was able to accurately describe where they were at when tested in real-time.(edited)
In this short, a neurologist issues a dare to a ragtime piano player and a famous conductor. One of them achieves a musical feat that ought to be impossible.
10:13 AM
(I believe this was previously called "A Head Full Of Symphonies" as seen here from another site, but the link 404s now, but it's the same site and I believe the same podcast)
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